Who Says We're Dumb?

[kz1000st]

http://modernvespa.com/forum/topic142718

Guess which Chinese scooter owner got it right?

[bandito2]

Well, in a way it was good to see that everyone tried to help with suggestions. The trouble is that out of all of them only one addressed the problem correctly. (yours... Good call BTW)

It can be a bit overwhelming to have so many different things coming in and that may actually not be helpful. But, the thing is when responding, he acknowledged to the respondent in the affirmative about the fuel pump "whir" sound. He responded to the guy regarding the spark plug, wire and gap that he checked those and no resolution to his problem. He answered another respondent that he did not ride his bike hard and that his valves had been set just 5000 miles ago. So he had a delay put into his travels and I'm pretty sure he paid a hefty towing bill and maybe for repair shop time too. But! yours he dismissed and could have saved himself the time, trouble, grief & $$$. (which very often is the price for education) I'll bet he was kicking himself for not following through with ALL the good suggestions.

The first respondent got it partially right by asking or at least suggesting that more info was needed.

I have to confess though that I am guilty of not following through on my own first instincts. Had a problem with one of my ebay buys from 3 1/2 years prior. (OK, so it was a garage queen for that time but I eventually got to fixing it) It was a coolant in the crankcase oil issue and I couldn't quite figure out how it was getting there. Coolant in the air box should have been a stark clue. One of the first things I thought about checking was the routing of cooling and air/vacuum lines. I looked and saw all hoses were hooked up, but I didn't actually confirm that everything was hooked up to where it was supposed to be. So then it was on to Knuckle busting, cursing, head scratching, tearing hair out, compression test to rule out head gasket and carb swaps (since that was one suspect) that did not help and worrying that the oil & water pump seal was bad and was the cause of the oil & coolant mixing in the crankcase. But it was in the replacing of the original carb that the sound of liquid sucking through an air hose was the alert that had me do a proper check of hose routing. Needless to say, but I found and resolved the mismatched hoses. Problem solved and the bike ran perfectly after that. It would have been resolved so much quicker and with far less trouble had I followed through on my own good suggestion.

We may not be dumb, but sometimes we can be just a wee bit dim witted.

[novaraptor]

Well, KZ, we do get in a bit more experience in wrenching on our machines.. It's a good thing..

[bandito2]

Originally Posted by bandito2

Well, in a way it was good to see that everyone tried to help with suggestions. The trouble is that out of all of them only one addressed the problem correctly. (yours... Good call BTW)

It can be a bit overwhelming to have so many different things coming in and that may actually not be helpful.

Needless to say, but I found and resolved the mismatched hoses. Problem solved and the bike ran perfectly after that. It would have been resolved so much quicker and with far less trouble had I followed through on my own good suggestion.

We may not be dumb, but sometimes we can be just a wee bit dim witted.

I guess I'd like to expound on the notion of the "K.I.S.S" methodology for diagnosing and solving problems. These are simple machines compared to some others that we encounter so it should stand to reason then that most causes and their solutions would be simple for the most part as well; there is no good reason to complicate things unnecessarily.

The average Joe's formulation of Occam's Razor that "the simplest explanation is usually the correct one." would seem to apply. At least unless and until further discovery would allow for more complexity to be just as valid. So it just makes sense then to try the simplest most obvious and likely theories first and apply the equally simple solutions since very often, if not most times it is the correct thing to do.

In the example posted by kz1000ST for example, just how difficult would it have been for the person with the problem to just unplug then plug back in the spark plug wire and/or a single connector as was suggested since they were just as likely causes and the simplest things that could have been tried first? Or, in my example of not completely and correctly checking the hose routing when that would have been one of the easiest things to check first. The error seems to have been with the lack of the simple yet COMPLETE FOLLOW THROUGH with those investigations and solutions. If you are going to do something, then do it completely else why bother in the first place?

And I'll just add, (not to diminish Occam's Razor) sometimes when you have a certain amount of familiarity with things, first instincts about them are often correct. In the Zen of scootering, heed that inner voice... As I should have done in my example of the need to correctly check the hoses as was my first inclination.



in a nutshell: K.I.S.S. (but make it complete with follow through & follow up)

[kz1000st]

As I stated in my suggestion, I had read on numerous occasions that MV readers had a problem with the connection on the injector. In essence I used their own experiences on the issue not having any Vespa wrench time of my own. I was kind of surprised that one of the "Real" members didn't suggest it first since it seems fairly common, after their coil wires being too short and pulling out all the time of course.

[bandito2]

Originally Posted by kz1000st

As I stated in my suggestion, I had read on numerous occasions that MV readers had a problem with the connection on the injector. In essence I used their own experiences on the issue not having any Vespa wrench time of my own. I was kind of surprised that one of the "Real" members didn't suggest it first since it seems fairly common, after their coil wires being too short and pulling out all the time of course.

Yes, as I said about familiarity (experience) with things, you read and learned from those experiences... even if vicariously. And your instincts about it were correct. But sometimes maybe it just takes a fresh point of view uncluttered from ingrained and complacent ways of thinking to "see a tree in spite of the forest" to mangle a term.

[wheelbender6]

Seems that paying top dollar for a top tier scooter does not guarantee mechanical reliability. It just means you will pay top dollar for repairs.

[bandito2]

Originally Posted by wheelbender6

Seems that paying top dollar for a top tier scooter does not guarantee mechanical reliability. It just means you will pay top dollar for repairs.

But paying bottom dollar for bikes built with sub-par materials and assembled in a slipshod
manner with poor quality control as is often the case certainly does make for a higher
likelihood of premature and frustratingly frequent failures...

Pay a little more, less often maybe with fewer down-time episodes or pay a little less but
more often in repeated installments with more down-time. Buyer's/rider's choice. Personally
I prefer the former.

To be fair, some improvements in materials and build quality are making their way into
some of the Chinese bikes, but they still have a long way to go. And the prices for those
better quality bikes are going up too so...

[kz1000st]

And the prices for those better quality bikes are going up too so...

It makes little sense that Vespa will be charging almost $5000 for a 150 Primavera when a Yamaha SMax, which clearly outperforms it, is $1200 cheaper. Less sense when you consider that a Piaggio Fly 150 with the same 3-Valve engine is only $2900. Can you say SYM Citicom 300i for $4900?

I agree that "Better Quality" scooter's prices are going up. From what I read on a daily basis over there, I don't know that Vespa is Better Quality.

[bandito2]

Originally Posted by kz1000st

And the prices for those better quality bikes are going up too so...

It makes little sense that Vespa will be charging almost $5000 for a 150 Primavera when a Yamaha SMax, which clearly outperforms it, is $1200 cheaper. Less sense when you consider that a Piaggio Fly 150 with the same 3-Valve engine is only $2900. Can you say SYM Citicom 300i for $4900?

I agree that "Better Quality" scooter's prices are going up. From what I read on a daily basis over there, I don't know that Vespa is Better Quality.

Those Italians must think they are really something.

BTW Vespa is made by Piaggio. They must think there is some premium using the badge "Primavera" on that Vespa model. I totally agree that charging almost double for something being "dolled up" and IMO hardly justifies that amount, really does not make much sense. I wonder how poorly it really sells.

I don't read over there daily, but when I do... whooo boy! yeah, I know what you mean.
I didn't really state it in my prior post, but when I was talking better quality, (I didn't think about the Italian bikes) I mostly meant the Japanese & Taiwanese bikes. (Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha, SYM, KYMCO etc.) And I can't think of the China bike manufacturer off hand that puts out poor quality stuff but the name Dong Fang comes to mind. I don't remember if that is a company or a provence/city where the scooters are made.

I wonder if anyone here would admit to or agree to the notion that there are some Chinese brands that are less than ideal...(or out right terrible)? And say who they are and why?

[kz1000st]

It isn't so much brands that determine quality, it's the importer. If you buy a Znen from some shlock outfit like Scooterdepot it won't be outfitted as well as a Znen from Bintelli. Justin is taking great pains to insure a happy customer with Bintelli while Scooterdepot is taking great pains to pick your pocket. Cheap wiring, bad connectors and poor assembly are the mark of some sellers. Anybody who buys a Sunny scooter, motorcycle or ATV is just crazy.

[wheelbender6]

From what I have read, the Piaggio BV 350 has suffered an unusually large amount of engine problems. I don't remember previous BV models, like the 500, having that problem.
That's really disappointing because the BV 350 was at the top of a lot of people's wish list.

[kz1000st]

I don't think it's just the BV-350. It seems to me that Vespa (and Piaggio) is the Harley Davidson of scooters. Yes, they have a history. Yes, they still use the pressed steel and link front suspension like they did in 1946. Yes, they have a loyal following that is a culture like the Harley crowd. BUT, like Harley Davidson, they are NOT the most technically advanced or reliable mechanical device in their class. I can say with some confidence that even a Taiwan built product is more reliable and Vespa is not even in the same league with the Japanese.

What it does seem to me is that given conscientious care and ridden within the bounds of the machine a Piaggio (or Vespa) will last a good long time. But you can say the same about a Chinese scooter so where does that leave you?