We need something like the CSC tour

[wheelbender6]

CSC riders recently toured the western states as a group on their RX3s.
We should organize a similar tour, to display the dependability of China scoots.
Since the milieu of the scooter is the city, the China scoot tour would take place as a series of scheduled rides across our cities. Sounds like fun.
http://blog.motorcycle.com/2015/08/0...stern-america/

[kz1000st]

Eventually people will get the word that Chinese motorcycles are real. The RX3 is built by Zongshen and is a bargain. If I needed a cheap commuter it would be on my list. If somebody like Wolf, Lance or Bintelli arranged something like this for scooters it would elevate the image by a huge factor.

[mainescoot]

I own a CS Cyclone RX3 (see rx3adventure.com) and I can tell you that there's a night and day difference between the quality of construction of that bike and any of the Chinese scooters I've owned. I just picked up a 2008 Shenk (=Jonway) YY150T-12 with 500 miles on it and I'm going through it checking the various systems.

The scooter wiring is sloppy compared with the RX3. I've already found one place where a wire had been trapped and crushed so that there was no longer conduction. None of the scooter connectors on the wiring harness are waterproof either. The welding looks like it was done by someone who was practicing. The alignment of various parts (like the handlebars) is "approximate". Haven't gotten to the fuel system yet, but my previous experience with Chinese scooters tells me I'm probably at least going to have to replace hoses (even on a new scooter) with actual fuel lines rather than just rubber tubing.

I suspect that if you put a bunch of typical Chinese scooters as they came from the dealer/distributor on a 5,000 mile trip like the RX3s, you would not have many left at the end!

Of course we are talking about a $3500 motorcycle vs an $800 scooter, but just because Zongshen got the RX3 right, it doesn't follow that Chinese scooters are anywhere near that standard of construction and I don't see many (if any) Chinese scooter manufacturers whose goal is to equal the quality of Japanese or European scooters. Their goal still appears to be to turn out the cheapest possible product. The Kymcos are somewhat better, but still not up to Japanese/European quality.

There's also the issue of support (or lack of it). CSC support for the RX3 is excellent. The average importer support for a Chinese scooter is zero. If Chinese scooters ever want to hit the mainstream, that has to change too.

[kz1000st]

I might agree with some of this except it makes too many generalizations. Ever hear of Wolf, Bintelli or even Motorino? Bintelli sells only through dealers and come with a warranty. Parts for a Chinese scooter are a cinch. Parts for Scooters, Scrappydog et. al. will get you parts in a trice. Don't get me wrong, there are some badly built scooters out there but even Tao Tao sells in shops and supplies parts through Eagle Parts. CSC is a great company but I'll bet there isn't a dealer on the corner if someone gets a Lemon. Zongshen isn't a household name either.

Don't be too hard on China scoots. One guy here has almost 9,000 miles on his crate scooter. Wait! It's me. Still running just fine after seven years.

Chinese scooters have come a long way in just five years. You just need to know who to buy from.

[mainescoot]

CSC are supporting the RX3 very well. I can call and speak with their head mechanic for the RX3 anytime for help and advice and they will ship out replacement parts for no cost under warranty with no hesitation. They don't have a dealer network, but under the warranty they will pay a local repair shop to do any work required and ship them any parts they need. It's not the same support you'd get from a Honda, but them again if you complained that there was a little pulsing in the front brake, Honda wouldn't instantly ship you a new brake rotor (as CSC did for me), and if you took it to the dealer they'd first have to make sure the disc was actually out of spec and then get approval from Honda before they would replace it.

There probably aren't many "lemon" RX3s (I've not heard of one). Their QC is very good. Every bike is actually Dyno tested before it leaves the Zongshen factory for example and if it doesn't meet specs it doesn't get shipped.

I don't know if the "US Brand" name Chinese scooters are any better than the generic scooters. They claim to be better but they don't say why. Are the components better? Is the wiring better? Is the quality control better? Are they made in different factories than the "scooter in a crate" models from Jonway, Roketta, Tao Tao etc. If they are charging 2x the price it would be nice to know what you are paying for.

The fact that you can get parts from a number of places and those parts fit everything from Roketta to a Jonway, Shenke,Wolf, Bintelli etc. suggests that they are pretty much all the same machines.

I'm not saying all Chinese scooters are unreliable crap, because if I thought that I wouldn't have bought more than one of them. With reasonable mechanical skill they can be kept running and provide fairly reliable transport. However I have no illusions about their typical intrinsic (lack of) quality and quality control.

I'm sure the Chinese are capable of manufacturing and assembling a world class scooter if they wanted to. It's just that they don't, or at least if they do I've never seen one sold here.

[kz1000st]

I'm sure the Chinese are capable of manufacturing and assembling a world class scooter if they wanted to. It's just that they don't, or at least if they do I've never seen one sold here.

Lance, Kymco and SYM all have factories in China build bikes for them. The Suzuki GW-250 is manufactured in China

I don't know if the "US Brand" name Chinese scooters are any better than the generic scooters. They claim to be better but they don't say why. Are the components better? Is the wiring better? Is the quality control better?

The reason US Brand name scooters are better is because they insist on Quality Control checks at the factory on the scooters they buy. Prior to Bintelli, etc. GS Motorworks was the go to company for crate scooters. Tony had factories do the checks and it showed. My 150cc scooter is from them. I won't lie, it needed a check on screws and many were loose but the wiring and components are still holding up fine seven years later. Flyscooters were the first dealer sold Znens but they folded in 2010. Many Flyscooters are also still out there.

[mainescoot]

All the quality control in the world isn't going to save you from cheap engineering.

Here's a picture of the connections to the headlight of a Chinese scooter (Shenke/Jonway YY150T-12). This isn't an assembly fault. It's supposed to be like this.



When you run unsheathed wires directly though a hole in sheet metal (bulb holder) without a grommet or anything to protect them, eventually you're going to wear through the wire insulation, get a short to ground and (hopefully) blow a fuse. Actually I'm not sure there is a fuse in the headlight circuit since it's AC operated directly from the alternator via the regulator, so a short could be bad news. I don't have an accurate wiring diagram to check. All the QC in the world won't save you if it's designed to be that way.

You would not see a design like this on a Vespa or a Honda scooter. To compete with Europe and Japan, Chinese scooters are going to have to be (a) designed better using higher quality components and (b) assembled better with a higher level of QC.

[kz1000st]

Listen, All Manufacturers make mistakes. My 2000 Kawasaki W650 had a tail light/directional assembly mounted unsupported on a thin steel fender. The vibration started the fender to crack on both sides. I had to drill ugly holes in front of the cracks to stop it from spreading or else the whole thing would have torn and fallen off. Vespas? Read up on the broken valves, burned undersize high current connections under the seat and fuel pump recall. Even the scooters not on the recall suffered from swelling impellers and failure. The Honda Helix, the most reliable scooter in the world, suffered from dried and breaking intake manifolds. The last editions came with support brackets....in about 2001 onwards. No recall for cracking manifolds running the engine lean and burning valves on the scooters built from 1986 until then.

Trust me, your RX3 will reveal an inadequacy sooner or later. They all do. Watch something stupid like unsealed brake light switches rust the return springs and fail like they did on my 1979 KZ1000.

BTW, I don't even know if there's a boot on my headlight bulb. In 7 years it hasn't given me trouble, unlike the $8,000 Vespas with toasted fuel pumps built at the same time.

More money doesn't always mean better. Sometimes it just means more expensive repairs.

This will be my next DP bike.
http://www.powersportsmax.com/produc...ducts_id/17701

[kz1000st]

And before this turns into something silly, there's no doubt that Chinese scooters are cheaply constructed, that's why they don't cost $3500 like a PCX 150, or a $5000 Vespa Primavera or even a made in China $2400 Kymco Super 8. You buy a 150cc online for $1200, do a good set up and it will get you there and back again for 10 years.

If you buy a Snap On ratchet for $65 you expect it to last forever. You don't expect a $20 Craftsman Evolv (also built in China) to last forever.

Are the Chinese getting better? I think there are enough 20,000 mile-plus-scooters of all sizes out there to indicate they are.

Would I do a 5,000 mile Tour on a Bintelli 150cc if offered? Yes, absolutely and with no qualms.

[mainescoot]

It won't get silly. If I thought Chinese scooters were totally unreliable junk I wouldn't have bought three of them. They've all had issues, such as leaking fuel systems, loose steering head bearings, faulty wiring and the like, but none of the problems has been very difficult for me to find and fix. Then again, unlike the average buyer of a Chinese scooter, I've had 30+ years of experience fixing bikes, cars and scooters.

But there is night and day difference between the RX3 and any Chinese scooter (or Korean) I've ever worked on. The RX3 build quality and design appears to be up to Japanese motorcycle standards. Components are first rate, assembly is neat and tidy. QC is excellent. Could it break? of course it could. Anything can. A BMW can quit running after 100 miles. Doesn't happen often, but it can. The point is that you shouldn't have to strip it down when you get it and put right all the things that are wrong with it to make it reliable, plus hope that any substandard wiring and electrical components don't fail. The average European/Japanese bike is built right (why is why it costs more of course).

If someone with few mechanical skills wanted the most reliable scooter for the least money, I'd still advise them that they would probably be better off buying a used Honda or Yamaha than a brand new Roketta, Jonway or even Bintelli.

Are Chinese scooters better no than they were 10 years ago? I honestly don't know, but I suppose they must be. If they were any worse, anyone buying one would be in a lot of trouble!

I'd like to see what China could do if they set their minds to making a scooter that could compete with the European/Japanese scooters in terms of design, quality and construction. I'll bet they could do it, and a a price lower than the scooters they would be competing with.

[kz1000st]

I agree with most of that. The problem is that to be better they would have to invest in more R&D, Quality Control, materials, a dealer and distribution network, Lawyers....

You know what happens next. The scooters aren't cheap any more. 40 years ago Japanese bikes were the cheapest on the planet. I bought my KZ1000st shafty for $3300. At the time a Harley Low Rider was $4900, now $14,199. A comparable bike would be the Concours 1400 at $15,500. Even a Z1000 is $12,000.

Your RX3 is a great bike, but...
Our Price: $3,495.00
California Residents: Add Tax and License
Documentation: $35.00
Assembly: $195.00
$3725

Isn't a SYM 250i $3799 and a Honda CB300F $3999?

OK, you have to add the tax, title and tips to those other bikes but you get the point. The RX3 is a step up but in the world of bikes it isn't cheap anymore. That will be what happens to all Chinese scooters if they suddenly got World Class.

I personally would rather exercise my Kobalts for less MSRP.

[bandito2]

I seem to recall some time ago that when you flipped over something cheap, often it had made in Japan stuck on the bottom. Then the Japanese got their poop together and started doing things right to be able to compete successfully in expanding global trade. Now you see their history of dominating in electronics, robotics, and automotive industries. They are a small country... so they have to try harder since they don't have a cheap labor force supply. Mostly for now that works for them. Helps that they have a culture that makes them a driven society. (that got them into pretty bad trouble once though) But it's getting to be an old country now... A third of the population is 60 or older which is a set up for a rather abrupt change in the way things are there.

It just looks like the Chinese have a tendency to laziness and are willing to get by for now just copying stuff... lots of stuff, with quantity over quality as the mode of operation so long as that works out for them. After all, there is plenty of cheap labor for them to use so there is little incentive to change and improve on current practices. They are opportunists taking advantage where they can. So maybe that just gives the appearance of being lazy. Don't know how much their culture plays into that but they do seem to have a history of just overwhelming things with sheer numbers. (with a Khan do attitude)

In spite of that, it seems that some over there are paying attention... for some things anyway. A lot of places around the world will be in trouble if or when they ever take the notion of copying quality to heart. Then it will be no more junk made in the factories in Kow-Dung China.

[kz1000st]

You should see the CF Moto videos. The Chinese invented numerous things. Gunpowder, chromium and large scale production. Why do they copy? Because they needed something quick to satisfy their large population's needs. They didn't need foolproof, they needed quick and dirty. It will change when they need better, not until. In the meantime their people keep their's running a long time on dirt roads and low quality lubricants.
What does that say about us? Hmmmm.