scootnwinn
02-11-2013, 07:30 PM
This is an old one from the old scootdawg It was somewhat controversial and I got in trouble for even suggesting some one think about this. I think its good to think though and with thoughtfulness and moderation I think this can be a healthy discussion. It was originally posted on 10/19/2012 I don't know that I'm right but my Suzuki ROCKS! Admin if this goes too far feel free to delete it... uhm the original went like this:
hard1 said "I venture to guess that most people that buy cheap Chinese scooters do not expect a Piagio or a Vespa or a Honda or a Yamaha when they spend one fourth the amount of money or even less for the internet special. Those that do complain just live in La La land and are out of touch with reality.
on the contrary, I find most low end scooter buyers do indeed believe their flea market scooters to be equal of a premium built scoot....."
This was taken from another thread started by cliftonc where he sought to impart wisdom to us. I have been thinking of talking about something similar for a while...
The statement above from the other thread is fairly accurate, I have seen it said here. They often say the big guys are all over priced and their bikes are similar or at the very least they indicate the have received at least 1/4 to 1/3 of a Japanese or Italian scooter. I have both a Japanese and Chinese bike and I don't know that I have received that much value compared to my Japanese bike for the $850 I spent on the Chinese. Mine is a "touring" scooter Jonway YY150t-2.
http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j435/alwyswinn/102611172818.jpg
So it goes to say the design intent was to tour, there is no way you can tour on this scooter period. So how do you keep with in its design limits. What are those limits? You can run a Honda 250, 150, 50 or whatever WFO every time you ride it for years, and years. If you hold mine wide open for 5 minutes you will feel it start to "complain" then sputter and you know you have to slow down.
As far as cost there is a serious misconception that Japanese bikes are too expensive. This is simply fiction. Honda will release a 50cc for under $2k this year (2013 model year) and their PCX 150 is $3499 it will do 70mph (actual mph) and gets a real 100 mpg look at this: http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/firstrides/122_1211_2013_honda_pcx150/ There is no comparable Chinese 150cc scooter to that. You will need a 250 to go that fast and your gas mileage will be around 60 mpg which means the Honda PCX costs $424 a year less to run (if you put 350 miles a week like I do). So the real price on the PCX for the first year is reduced by $420. (minor digression: Vespa makes a sweet and I mean SWEET little 150 comparable to the Honda in price fit and finish. I left the Italians out to keep this simple and likewise the Taiwanese whose prices are a somewhere in between Chinese Japanese/Italian as is the performance. Though I must say I have never ridden a Kymco or its cousins I only know what I have read and seen second hand so with that, Now Back to Your Regularly Scheduled Program) and So in order match the performance (not mileage, just in order to do freeway speeds) of that Honda you will have to buy a 250 Chinese scoot which will cost around $2000 see here:
http://www.google.com/search?q=300cc+scooter&rlz=1C1SFXN_enUS498US498&aq=0&oq=300cc+scooter&sugexp=chrome,mod=0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#hl=en&rlz=1C1SFXN_enUS498US498&sclient=psy-ab&q=250cc+scooter&oq=250cc+&gs_l=serp.1.2.0l4.540904.542725.0.544546.6.4.0.2.2 .0.142.424.2j2.4.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.ytY4j1PHtwY&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=cd238efcd5bfa751&bpcl=35466521&biw=1280&bih=673
So after you do the famous (and absolutely necessary) PDI listed here you have a lot of time and another $50-$250 into the bike depending on whether you change the tires. Not to mention a whole mess of time, bloody knuckles, and hopefully you didn't break anything. If you need to warranty anything (and some do as soon as they un-crate them) you will wait unless you buy locally (not always possible right?) So I think you just got a bike that is far inferior to the Honda (its 1/4 to 1/3 of the bike right??) for around $2200 which is 71% of the cost of the Honda. Oh of course you could always get this Used Honda Reflex 250 http://santafe.craigslist.org/mcy/3249547047.html for $2100 then you really have a problem you just paid 5% more for 25% of the bike, not good!
So that's just one equation I was doing in my head as I was shaking down the road on my lovely little Jonway, contemplating getting a bigger bike recently. Basically I decided I not only wanted to do highway speeds but I actually wanted to not be maxed out doing them so I started looking at bikes 300 or bigger (basically about as big as Chinese scoots get) they cost around $2600 give or take see here:
http://www.google.com/search?q=300cc+scooter&rlz=1C1SFXN_enUS498US498&aq=0&oq=300cc+scooter&sugexp=chrome,mod=0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
I doubt those prices are final to your door prices and I can assure you the titling and registration process will stink (my boss bills my time at $65 an hour so 3 trips to the MVD costs quite a bit...) so real world cost is nearly $3000 I'm sure. My Burgman 400 gets better gas mileage puts out nearly twice as much horsepower and the fit and finish on it is as good now 6 years after it was produced than that scooter will have out of the crate. It will cost $200 or more in gas alone to run the Chinese Scooter in the first year (based on 350 miles per week and around 10 mpg less than what the Suzuki gets). So I paid $2600 for the Burgman and I got, by most accounts on here 2 times the scooter maybe 4 times. Suddenly that Chinese scoot isn't all that great. Add to all that the fact the Burgman came with 2 name brand helmets a Givi touring windshield and the stock shield and the value is clear.
Ok, so that's the basic math but there are more variables to the equation. I worked at a Honda Motorcycle shop (at the time the 3rd best rated in the country) for 3 years. We never had a bike not start out of the crate (sorry that's a lie we were the first to receive the new Indian motorcycles the first one we got took all 5 mechanics 5 hours to get it to idle it was a pile sorry Indian fans). We never once had a bike not start or quit running while it was going down the road, not in the first year or even after 2 years of abuse. I mean some of these guys treated their bikes like crap and those little Hondas took it all and just kept ticking. I see a new post on here daily "Chinese Scooter XYZ left me stranded" "won't idle" "won't accept throttle" "doesn't stop" "no lights" etc. I didn't see these things with Honda. The only issue I saw with bikes not starting were the big single cylinder dirt-bikes 400cc and up. These bikes were notoriously tricky to start. In one case the salesman who sold a guy one that he was unable to start went to the guy's house and spent the afternoon basically showing him how to reliably kick it over, for free mind you.
So lets say your new 250 leaves you stranded on the way to work once how much is that worth? What if you miss a job interview? What if your late and your fired? How much is peace of mind worth? I'll be honest after my experience with my little 150 I was concerned with what issues the larger faster Chinese bike would have. Would the brakes stink too?? Would the chassis be as soft??
So obviously I bought a used Suzuki Burgman 400.
http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j435/alwyswinn/P1040660.jpg
I wanted to let you know the differences I have noticed since I got it around 1500 miles ago (or like 3 and half weeks ago) The Jonway got 2800 miles in a year so the first difference is right there. The Burgman is freakin' nice to ride. You aren't watching the rear view mirror to see what is barreling down the road to smash you, you are watching the road ahead as you are able to go basically as fast as you need/want to. You can pass, climb hills, ride into a 20-30 mph headwind (which happens quite a bit in this neck of the woods) and maintain 55 mph, or whatever you always have enough power. The Jonway should have been able to do this any website that sells them says, the Jonway should be able to do 55-65 mph* that * is the kicker though isn't it? The * means the bike really, in all actuality, on planet Earth, will only do around 50 and sometimes only 45. You can do 55 if you hold it WFO long enough and you have a bit of a slope down and there's no wind (I only weigh 150 BTW and when I started riding it I weighed 135 and those 20lbs haven't seemed to make a difference). When you get up at those speeds you feel like your doing 180 mph cause the little guy feels like its ready to blow apart. So bottom line I couldn't ride it daily because it just flat wouldn't do what it was designed to do. It is possible to go 70 mph with 150cc's (see above). So it sat a lot because I would have to hold it wide open to come home in the wind (the wind blows 80% of the time out here) and still only maintain 50ish. At any speed the Suzuki feels solid the suspension works right and it keeps the wheels planted firmly on the pavement. Its a joy to ride pure and simple. I hate it when I have to drive the cage for any reason. I use it to go everywhere and wouldn't hesitate to go anywhere. All the plastic fits I mean nice and snug after 6 years in Arizona and 14000 miles. The 150 has 3600 on it lots of broken tabs misshapen pieces the lenses on the all the lights except the headlights are discolored. Remember, it is technically a 2008 but it didn't see the light of day until the original owner (the guy I bought from) got it in 2011. It started leaking oil a while back from where, only God knows. To be fair the Suzuki used about 1/2 a quart in the last 1200 miles but I knew it was possible since the 06's have an issue with their crankcase vent... Anyway the 2 bikes are night and day different. The 150 to be fair might be ok in the city but just 9 miles a day (actually 18 if you count the ride home) at 50-55mph (top speed whatever it really is) can not happen for long. I figure it would make it another 4000 before the motor was replaced. I am no going to buy a new scooter every year whether or not I can, as many on here say, "you can buy 2-4 Chinese scooters for 1 Japanese scoot" I refuse to waste that much. The whole idea of 2 wheelin, in my mind at least, is economical transportation that is good for the environment. Throwing away a scooter isn't right with my mindset. Now if you really can't reach $2k for a scoot there are still better options than a new "throw away machine" (keep in mind, these are not my words but the basic sentiment of people who say you can get 2-4 Chinese scoots for the Japanese one, not true but...)
Here in NM
Kawasaki Eliminator $1650 http://santafe.craigslist.org/mcy/3252566589.html
Kymco 125 $1800 http://santafe.craigslist.org/mcy/3326644928.html
Unknown Honda $1000 http://albuquerque.craigslist.org/cto/3348322334.html (I bet it even runs)
Kymco Agility 125 $1299 http://albuquerque.craigslist.org/mcd/3333902138.html
Honda Elite 80 $850 http://albuquerque.craigslist.org/mcy/3288746800.html
Honda Rebel $1000 http://albuquerque.craigslist.org/mcy/3322618992.html
Trust me there are a whole lot more than that. You just gotta look and know what to look for. I search often within a 1000 mile radius and there is a lot out there...
So any way if you are really honest with yourself and take in the totality of the experiences recorded here and on other sites the Chinese scooter, cost wise at least, is the same price as a Japanese machine to get it in your garage. However a Japanese bike has more power and better everything. If you look at it from a value stand point you are losing in the long run.
Now I am reasonable and we are starting to see a few companies bring better Chinese bikes into the states but the initial price is higher and comparable to the Kymco etc. Most of the stuff online is not the good stuff. I don't care really what you do to a bike (except maybe leave the oil out) it shouldn't stop running in the first year unless you shut it off.
Ok, lots of opinions here obviously from me. So let me just say a bit about myself:
My name is Rob Winn I am a Certified Honda Service Adviser, (no longer work as one but that doesn't make me unlearn anything) I have ridden motorcycles for 21 years, so ya I'm getting old, 37 to be exact. I have ridden everything Suzuki, Ducati, Kawasaki, BMW, Norton, Triumph, Honda, Indian, Harley, Yamaha... all different sizes styles. I have owned 6 Hondas from the GL500 to the Shadow 1100, 2 Suzuki's 1 Kawasaki, 1 home-made moped, and the Jonway. I commuted with/used them all as my primary transportation. When I wasn't on a motorcycle commuting (I only used a car as my primary a total of 3 years over the past 20 or so) I was using a bicycle for commuting. I know what a bike should do and how it should feel. I do all my own work on all my vehicles, after my time at the Honda shop I was a mechanic's apprentice in an independent motorcycle shop for a year. I guess my point is, yes, these are just my opinions but they are well qualified opinions based on 10's of thousands of miles on 2 wheels.
Hope it wasn't too long winded or rambling. Hope it saves someone from pushing a brand new bike at some point in the future...
No matter what you ride keep the shiny side up and wave to your fellow bikers, no matter what we ride we are all in the same battle
hard1 said "I venture to guess that most people that buy cheap Chinese scooters do not expect a Piagio or a Vespa or a Honda or a Yamaha when they spend one fourth the amount of money or even less for the internet special. Those that do complain just live in La La land and are out of touch with reality.
on the contrary, I find most low end scooter buyers do indeed believe their flea market scooters to be equal of a premium built scoot....."
This was taken from another thread started by cliftonc where he sought to impart wisdom to us. I have been thinking of talking about something similar for a while...
The statement above from the other thread is fairly accurate, I have seen it said here. They often say the big guys are all over priced and their bikes are similar or at the very least they indicate the have received at least 1/4 to 1/3 of a Japanese or Italian scooter. I have both a Japanese and Chinese bike and I don't know that I have received that much value compared to my Japanese bike for the $850 I spent on the Chinese. Mine is a "touring" scooter Jonway YY150t-2.
http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j435/alwyswinn/102611172818.jpg
So it goes to say the design intent was to tour, there is no way you can tour on this scooter period. So how do you keep with in its design limits. What are those limits? You can run a Honda 250, 150, 50 or whatever WFO every time you ride it for years, and years. If you hold mine wide open for 5 minutes you will feel it start to "complain" then sputter and you know you have to slow down.
As far as cost there is a serious misconception that Japanese bikes are too expensive. This is simply fiction. Honda will release a 50cc for under $2k this year (2013 model year) and their PCX 150 is $3499 it will do 70mph (actual mph) and gets a real 100 mpg look at this: http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/firstrides/122_1211_2013_honda_pcx150/ There is no comparable Chinese 150cc scooter to that. You will need a 250 to go that fast and your gas mileage will be around 60 mpg which means the Honda PCX costs $424 a year less to run (if you put 350 miles a week like I do). So the real price on the PCX for the first year is reduced by $420. (minor digression: Vespa makes a sweet and I mean SWEET little 150 comparable to the Honda in price fit and finish. I left the Italians out to keep this simple and likewise the Taiwanese whose prices are a somewhere in between Chinese Japanese/Italian as is the performance. Though I must say I have never ridden a Kymco or its cousins I only know what I have read and seen second hand so with that, Now Back to Your Regularly Scheduled Program) and So in order match the performance (not mileage, just in order to do freeway speeds) of that Honda you will have to buy a 250 Chinese scoot which will cost around $2000 see here:
http://www.google.com/search?q=300cc+scooter&rlz=1C1SFXN_enUS498US498&aq=0&oq=300cc+scooter&sugexp=chrome,mod=0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#hl=en&rlz=1C1SFXN_enUS498US498&sclient=psy-ab&q=250cc+scooter&oq=250cc+&gs_l=serp.1.2.0l4.540904.542725.0.544546.6.4.0.2.2 .0.142.424.2j2.4.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.ytY4j1PHtwY&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=cd238efcd5bfa751&bpcl=35466521&biw=1280&bih=673
So after you do the famous (and absolutely necessary) PDI listed here you have a lot of time and another $50-$250 into the bike depending on whether you change the tires. Not to mention a whole mess of time, bloody knuckles, and hopefully you didn't break anything. If you need to warranty anything (and some do as soon as they un-crate them) you will wait unless you buy locally (not always possible right?) So I think you just got a bike that is far inferior to the Honda (its 1/4 to 1/3 of the bike right??) for around $2200 which is 71% of the cost of the Honda. Oh of course you could always get this Used Honda Reflex 250 http://santafe.craigslist.org/mcy/3249547047.html for $2100 then you really have a problem you just paid 5% more for 25% of the bike, not good!
So that's just one equation I was doing in my head as I was shaking down the road on my lovely little Jonway, contemplating getting a bigger bike recently. Basically I decided I not only wanted to do highway speeds but I actually wanted to not be maxed out doing them so I started looking at bikes 300 or bigger (basically about as big as Chinese scoots get) they cost around $2600 give or take see here:
http://www.google.com/search?q=300cc+scooter&rlz=1C1SFXN_enUS498US498&aq=0&oq=300cc+scooter&sugexp=chrome,mod=0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
I doubt those prices are final to your door prices and I can assure you the titling and registration process will stink (my boss bills my time at $65 an hour so 3 trips to the MVD costs quite a bit...) so real world cost is nearly $3000 I'm sure. My Burgman 400 gets better gas mileage puts out nearly twice as much horsepower and the fit and finish on it is as good now 6 years after it was produced than that scooter will have out of the crate. It will cost $200 or more in gas alone to run the Chinese Scooter in the first year (based on 350 miles per week and around 10 mpg less than what the Suzuki gets). So I paid $2600 for the Burgman and I got, by most accounts on here 2 times the scooter maybe 4 times. Suddenly that Chinese scoot isn't all that great. Add to all that the fact the Burgman came with 2 name brand helmets a Givi touring windshield and the stock shield and the value is clear.
Ok, so that's the basic math but there are more variables to the equation. I worked at a Honda Motorcycle shop (at the time the 3rd best rated in the country) for 3 years. We never had a bike not start out of the crate (sorry that's a lie we were the first to receive the new Indian motorcycles the first one we got took all 5 mechanics 5 hours to get it to idle it was a pile sorry Indian fans). We never once had a bike not start or quit running while it was going down the road, not in the first year or even after 2 years of abuse. I mean some of these guys treated their bikes like crap and those little Hondas took it all and just kept ticking. I see a new post on here daily "Chinese Scooter XYZ left me stranded" "won't idle" "won't accept throttle" "doesn't stop" "no lights" etc. I didn't see these things with Honda. The only issue I saw with bikes not starting were the big single cylinder dirt-bikes 400cc and up. These bikes were notoriously tricky to start. In one case the salesman who sold a guy one that he was unable to start went to the guy's house and spent the afternoon basically showing him how to reliably kick it over, for free mind you.
So lets say your new 250 leaves you stranded on the way to work once how much is that worth? What if you miss a job interview? What if your late and your fired? How much is peace of mind worth? I'll be honest after my experience with my little 150 I was concerned with what issues the larger faster Chinese bike would have. Would the brakes stink too?? Would the chassis be as soft??
So obviously I bought a used Suzuki Burgman 400.
http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j435/alwyswinn/P1040660.jpg
I wanted to let you know the differences I have noticed since I got it around 1500 miles ago (or like 3 and half weeks ago) The Jonway got 2800 miles in a year so the first difference is right there. The Burgman is freakin' nice to ride. You aren't watching the rear view mirror to see what is barreling down the road to smash you, you are watching the road ahead as you are able to go basically as fast as you need/want to. You can pass, climb hills, ride into a 20-30 mph headwind (which happens quite a bit in this neck of the woods) and maintain 55 mph, or whatever you always have enough power. The Jonway should have been able to do this any website that sells them says, the Jonway should be able to do 55-65 mph* that * is the kicker though isn't it? The * means the bike really, in all actuality, on planet Earth, will only do around 50 and sometimes only 45. You can do 55 if you hold it WFO long enough and you have a bit of a slope down and there's no wind (I only weigh 150 BTW and when I started riding it I weighed 135 and those 20lbs haven't seemed to make a difference). When you get up at those speeds you feel like your doing 180 mph cause the little guy feels like its ready to blow apart. So bottom line I couldn't ride it daily because it just flat wouldn't do what it was designed to do. It is possible to go 70 mph with 150cc's (see above). So it sat a lot because I would have to hold it wide open to come home in the wind (the wind blows 80% of the time out here) and still only maintain 50ish. At any speed the Suzuki feels solid the suspension works right and it keeps the wheels planted firmly on the pavement. Its a joy to ride pure and simple. I hate it when I have to drive the cage for any reason. I use it to go everywhere and wouldn't hesitate to go anywhere. All the plastic fits I mean nice and snug after 6 years in Arizona and 14000 miles. The 150 has 3600 on it lots of broken tabs misshapen pieces the lenses on the all the lights except the headlights are discolored. Remember, it is technically a 2008 but it didn't see the light of day until the original owner (the guy I bought from) got it in 2011. It started leaking oil a while back from where, only God knows. To be fair the Suzuki used about 1/2 a quart in the last 1200 miles but I knew it was possible since the 06's have an issue with their crankcase vent... Anyway the 2 bikes are night and day different. The 150 to be fair might be ok in the city but just 9 miles a day (actually 18 if you count the ride home) at 50-55mph (top speed whatever it really is) can not happen for long. I figure it would make it another 4000 before the motor was replaced. I am no going to buy a new scooter every year whether or not I can, as many on here say, "you can buy 2-4 Chinese scooters for 1 Japanese scoot" I refuse to waste that much. The whole idea of 2 wheelin, in my mind at least, is economical transportation that is good for the environment. Throwing away a scooter isn't right with my mindset. Now if you really can't reach $2k for a scoot there are still better options than a new "throw away machine" (keep in mind, these are not my words but the basic sentiment of people who say you can get 2-4 Chinese scoots for the Japanese one, not true but...)
Here in NM
Kawasaki Eliminator $1650 http://santafe.craigslist.org/mcy/3252566589.html
Kymco 125 $1800 http://santafe.craigslist.org/mcy/3326644928.html
Unknown Honda $1000 http://albuquerque.craigslist.org/cto/3348322334.html (I bet it even runs)
Kymco Agility 125 $1299 http://albuquerque.craigslist.org/mcd/3333902138.html
Honda Elite 80 $850 http://albuquerque.craigslist.org/mcy/3288746800.html
Honda Rebel $1000 http://albuquerque.craigslist.org/mcy/3322618992.html
Trust me there are a whole lot more than that. You just gotta look and know what to look for. I search often within a 1000 mile radius and there is a lot out there...
So any way if you are really honest with yourself and take in the totality of the experiences recorded here and on other sites the Chinese scooter, cost wise at least, is the same price as a Japanese machine to get it in your garage. However a Japanese bike has more power and better everything. If you look at it from a value stand point you are losing in the long run.
Now I am reasonable and we are starting to see a few companies bring better Chinese bikes into the states but the initial price is higher and comparable to the Kymco etc. Most of the stuff online is not the good stuff. I don't care really what you do to a bike (except maybe leave the oil out) it shouldn't stop running in the first year unless you shut it off.
Ok, lots of opinions here obviously from me. So let me just say a bit about myself:
My name is Rob Winn I am a Certified Honda Service Adviser, (no longer work as one but that doesn't make me unlearn anything) I have ridden motorcycles for 21 years, so ya I'm getting old, 37 to be exact. I have ridden everything Suzuki, Ducati, Kawasaki, BMW, Norton, Triumph, Honda, Indian, Harley, Yamaha... all different sizes styles. I have owned 6 Hondas from the GL500 to the Shadow 1100, 2 Suzuki's 1 Kawasaki, 1 home-made moped, and the Jonway. I commuted with/used them all as my primary transportation. When I wasn't on a motorcycle commuting (I only used a car as my primary a total of 3 years over the past 20 or so) I was using a bicycle for commuting. I know what a bike should do and how it should feel. I do all my own work on all my vehicles, after my time at the Honda shop I was a mechanic's apprentice in an independent motorcycle shop for a year. I guess my point is, yes, these are just my opinions but they are well qualified opinions based on 10's of thousands of miles on 2 wheels.
Hope it wasn't too long winded or rambling. Hope it saves someone from pushing a brand new bike at some point in the future...
No matter what you ride keep the shiny side up and wave to your fellow bikers, no matter what we ride we are all in the same battle